Are Homosexuals Born That Way?
Most homosexuals would say that they have always been attracted to the same sex. And among current homosexuals, there doesn’t seem to be any room for calling their same-sex attraction a choice.
Evidence Suggests It’s a Choice for Some
I’ve personally known heterosexuals who later became homosexual. And I’ve personally known homosexuals who later became heterosexual. There are several ministries (http://www.exodusinternational.org/, http://www.venusmagazine.org/cover_story.html) devoted to helping people leave homosexuality, and they seem to be experiencing a degree of success.
…that indicates that embracing homosexuality CAN be a choice…at least for SOME homosexuals.
The usual rebuttals to these deconversions usually sound like this: “they were never really gay in the first place”, or “they are simply denying their natural attraction and are now living a lie”, or “they are succumbing due to family or cultural pressure.” However, trying to tell someone else why they made a choice, or explain away why they made an LGBT politically unpopular choice to leave homosexuality is incredibly insensitive and presumptuous.
The Debate Continues – Let’s Dialogue
We want to encourage voices from both heterosexuals AND homosexuals on this topic.
Does It Matter Either Way?
Seeking common ground, I think we can agree that homosexuals and LGBT‘s have been grossly mistreated.
In other words, regardless of what you believe on the issue of whether homosexuals are born that way, or whether they can choose it or reject it, we MUST treat homosexuals with love and respect. To reverse Christian homophobia, but we MUST treat homosexuals with love and respect. We can discuss and debate how the Bible (God’s word) should be interpreted on the topic of homosexuality, but we MUST treat homosexuals with love and respect. We may have opposing beliefs about whether your identity, who you are, should be grounded in your sexuality or rooted in who God says you are…a child of God, but we MUST treat homosexuals with love and respect.
Let’s Treat Homosexuals with Love and Respect Either Way
I think we can agree that homosexuals and LGBT’s have been grossly mistreated. We MUST treat homosexuals with love and respect.
I believe helping Christians with their homophobia, and any homophobia I may still have left in me, will ultimately benefit society and the homosexual community in the world. Together we can build bridges and learn to love each other instead of continuing to attack each other physically and verbally.
Our Mission – It’s a Marathon, Not a Race
One of the things we would ask in this subject area is your patience with our ministry. When we started Changing the Face of Christianity in June 2010, we recognized that to accomplish our mission to make a noticeable difference on a global scale would take a lifetime and would also necessarily involve LOTS of other people working toward the same goal worldwide. So, we don’t view our mission as a sprint to the finish line, but rather an incredibly long marathon.
- We are working to reverse Christian intolerance, and helping Christians positively engage with people of other beliefs. This does not mean accepting or agreeing with every other belief system out there, but it does mean looking at people with other beliefs as still incredibly important and valuable to God, and allowing ourselves to look past differences and to seek areas of agreement.
- We are trying to reverse Christian judgmentalism, and help Christians understand that WE have no sound basis for treating others as “less-than” us.
- We are trying to reverse Christian hypocrisy, and help Christians to live lives that honor God.
- And as we’ve discussed, we are trying to reverse Christian homophobia.
We Ask for your Grace, Support and Encouragement
We fully expect to learn many things along the way that we hope to be able to share with everyone for the common good. In that light, we would ask for your grace and support for that long term goal.
Even if you are anti-Christian or anti-religion, we would appreciate and welcome your moral support or “positive thoughts” and encouragement to help make a positive difference in this world.
I think you need to turn this around. Ask yourself, “Is heterosexuality a choice and does it matter?” As a heterosexual male, I can’t conceive of marrying or being romantically involved with another man. Why should a homosexual not feel the same way toward women? To demand of someone else that which you would find inconceivable if the roles were reversed is beyond hypocritical. You want to get over being thought of as shallow, narrow-minded bigots? You might spend a bit more time shoe-swapping. CFC Response: Thanks. Did you read past the headline? What is it that you think we are demanding? If anything, what we are demanding is “we MUST treat homosexuals with love and respect”. That’s what the article is about.
Bruce Kuzma says
The Heterosexual / Homosexual problem hasbeen around for the entire life cycle of the Human Element…People are made of genes from their mother and father…Those that are stronger will dominate the pool of influence in any form that is manafested, be it male or female. Testosterone…Biochemistry . the sex hormone, C 19 H 28 O 2 , secreted by the testes, that stimulates the development of male sex organs, secondary sexual traits, and sperm. Estrogen…Biochemistry . any of several major female sex hormones produced primarily by the ovarian follicles of female mammals, capable of inducing estrus, developing and maintaining secondary female sex characteristics, and preparing the uterus for the reception of a fertilized egg: used, especially in synthetic form, as a component of oral contraceptives, in certain cancer treatments, and in other therapies. If your mother has the dominate genes being past on to the Fetus ((used chiefly of viviparous mammals) the young of an animal in the womb or egg, especially in the later stages of development when the body structures are in the recognizable form of its kind, in humans after the end of the second month of gestation.), then that is the form the child takes on in mind, body and soul. The dominance factor could be an imbalance of the genes that form the body and that which forms the mind of its awareness…Thus, your mind tells itself it is female, your body has the functionality of the male, the phychosis is the concern that can be the remedy,however, to most that have the belief that which they are cannot be changed because of their programing / education. The imperfections of the biological make up of the human element is of which God has made apart of our element to understand, To outcast that which is natural and biological is being a hypocrite to the Christian Doctrine…Love thy neighbor as thy self…Which genes are dominate in your body? By personal choice? By Political Pressure? That is the question to be resolved… Now, that has been discussed, The other side of the equation is those that choose to be that which they are. The evil form of the biological process…It is the gender of its form that pretends to be the other for the vanity of the other for personal and/or political gains. This is the abomination of the Lord that caused man to be put to death…See Sodom and Gomorrah in Genesis.
So God made Sodomites in his own image, and then said he abhors them? Are homosexuals a mistake God made? What about pedophilia or bigamy? Can not the same argument be made (contorted) to justify these lustful practices? We as sinners will contort and twist like a pretzel to justify and defend our lusts as acceptable to God in OUR eyes and attempt to convince other people our sin is not a sin. Either sin, enjoy your sin and expect to reap the harvest of your sin, or turn from your sin and accept God’s grace and forgiveness. Deut:5:9 (Do).. not bow down thyself unto them, nor serve them: for I the LORD thy God am a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children unto the third and fourth generation of them that hate me, 10 And shewing mercy unto thousands of them that love me and keep my commandments.
So compelling are the arguments on both sides, it could almost be said that yes-homosexuals are born that way AND yes-it’s still a choice. And, yes, I did. I accept your statement that it shouldn’t matter, I just take issue with the “Yes, it’s a choice” crap. I haven’t seen any compelling statement to the contrary. Mind you, there are in-between cases; people have changed their minds, and I’ve met a few bisexuals, but most of my homosexual friends are as naturally homosexual as I am hetero.
You do realize that as sinners we are all “naturally” sinners, and you have your “natural” sins just like homosexuals have their “natural” sin. That isn’t necessarily a selling point for your comment.
Please all who are confused on this subject read Roman’s 1vs 18-32 it is written plainly for all who seek the truth…His Word will not come back void.I am dealing with this spiritual war personally via my beloved 35 year old daughter.A star truly she teaches troubled kids has given much to her calling,asks nothing of me but to accept her homosexuality…well she’s uped the ante,she wants to marry her now so called love.There is no way I will betray my Lord to please anyone.There is NO SUCH THING AS A MARRIAGE BETWEEN TWO OF THE SAME SEX.I dont care what Obama thinks.The word of God is true and He will see me thru this.I guess i should rejoice for the persecution I will recieve from her,she will cut me off…so be it…to the glory of His Name.
R. Brad White says
Jeannette, it sounds like you are pushing for a separation between you and your daughter…but please correct me if that’s not the case. My question for you in that context is this: Can you love and accept (not agree) your daughter for who she is (your child), even though you realize she is living in sexual sin and obviously disagree with her choice? Can you BE around her and her partner and continue to love her…in spite of her sin? My prayer is that you can. My point…she knows what you think, you’ve shared the truth. Now it’s between her and God. Try to love her through this anyway as only a mother can do. And a follow-up question: Do you have other friends (living in sin) that you continue to be friends with? (are they somehow different?) Do you have any willful, continued sin in your own life? If so, you are in exactly the same spot as your daughter. All Sin is Sin. We must acknowledge it, repent and ask forgiveness, and God is faithful to forgive. I truly pray that regardless of differences that you and your daughter can still be a family.
Please do not accuse me of looking for a break with my daughter.lIve walked with her about this subject she and her partner and many other gay women have I accepted.Here’s where I draw the line..MARRIAGE…now maybe you might say well you’ve accepted and always loved her so why not marriage???Because there is no such thing,I dont care what the world says or does,there is no such thing as same sex marriage in the eyes of God.So if I dont attend I GET CUT OFF…Marriage has been given as a sacrament,it is holy and the marriage bed between a man and a woman is not defiled.You and other’s may accuse me of judging her…well if you witness someone getting shot with a gun,are you juding that person.I cannot and will not accept marriage between the same sex.Jeannette
Katie Pingu says
You say, Jeanette, that there is no such thing as same sex marriage in the eyes of God. Marriage is a celebration of the love 2 people hold for one another, yes? Two people of the same sex love each other just as much as two people of the opposite sex. Love is love. Jesus talked about loving everybody. God is called All Loving. Therefore in the eyes of God, homosexuality and same sex marriage is not a sin, rather, it is a wonderful beautiful thing, because it is love. It hurts nobody. Homosexuality is love. That’s all I can say.
R. Brad White says
Katie, in your comment I thought you were doing fine until your “Therefore…” Using Therefore suggests that A somehow proves the B after “therefore”. However, you really can’t make that leap and contradict God at the same time. In other words, you CAN say that two people of the same sex love each other just as much as any heterosexual couple, but that doesn’t mean God approves of the union or doesn’t believe homosexual love or marriage is a sin. God says homosexuality IS a sin. And God says that marriage is between one man and one woman. You may want and wish the Therefore to be true, but suggesting it contradicts God’s word. So, go on loving as you please, but don’t fool yourself about what God thinks about it.
R.Brad White, I agree with everything you posted….please dont accuse me of looking to break with my homosexual daughter.You have no idea what’s going on here and to think you can read my heart especially on this subject,you are mistaken.All I know is that God has made it very clear that we are born in sin and unless we accept GOD’S WAY TO SALVATION THRU THE SHED BLOOD OF HIS SON…and if we ignore this so great a divine truth we shall die in our sins….sin is sin but the consequenses of some sin’s can bring down a country…such as ours…..May I suggest a wonderful book by a jewish rabbi Johnathan Cahn,”The Harbinger”I hope i inspire some of you to get this book,it will blow your mind.Maranatha,Jeannette..p.s. I totally believe this is a huge wake up call to us,particularly us americans.
Jeannette: It is important for us, as Christians, to LOVE those who are not. It is Biblical to NOT force our Biblical values on non-Christians. Please know you are not denying your faith or your Biblical values if you love your daughter AND her partner. Accept them as they are and go to the wedding with a smile and share THEIR happiness even though it contradicts yours. You will go much farther in your Christian example by doing so. If at some point your daughter or her partner seek the Lord in their life, you will be one they will come to because of your love. Hoping it isn’t too late. Many Blessings!
Jeannette Webber says
Dear Anonymous, Your outlook for me is humanistic.The Lord has said in His word both in the New and the Old testaments that this particular sin is an abomination to Him…now you think I should attend a sacriligious ceremony ie woman & woman? I think not,my spirit tells me that I would betray Him and maybe that sounds self righteous but for me there is no such thing as same sex marriage.You people who believe as christians we are to fellowship with these sins…same as keeping company with this kind of lifestyle….I will never accept same sex marriage…your explanation of how I should act and be with my daughter,cracks me up…are you a homosexual?I love my daughter enough to tell her what she needs to hear,not what she wants.Ive given all I have to give but that does not include denying the truth,there is NO SUCH THING AS SAME SEX MARRIAGE IN GOD’S EYES.
amen. well said
On the contrary, a few decades ago it was not uncommon to hear gay people express that they had chosen their sexuality or sexual lifestyle. This was at a time where many psychologists still classified homosexuality among mental illness and this answer seemed in large part to challenge the idea that sexual orientation was some mental and beyond the individual’s control. The attempts to find a genetic link to homosexuality (largely incomplete) changed the political landscape to one where the argument is largely founded on concepts such as “this is natural for me” or “God made me this way.” In all likelihood, there is probably more than one reason why people are gay, including biological predisposition, psychology, and personal attitudes. The majority may be a result of biological disposition, but there should be no denying that the reasons given by individuals themselves (or the preponderance of the gay community) are often conditioned by the political and social realities at the time. It’s also undeniable that most gay people feel they are intrinsically gay, regardless of the reasons why.
Donald in Marietta, GA says
IMHO, it doesn’t matter what we as people are attracted to. The important question is what we do about it. When I became a Christian at age 26 I had a choice to make, will I obey God or not? I can follow my sexual desires, but not walk with God, or follow my God, but not walk in sexual desires. I chose to walk wit my God and put off my sexual desires until I was married to a believing woman 11 years later. I regularly post my opinions on my blog, dwnorman.net
Does treating homosexuals with love and respect include supporting marriage rights and the right to adopt children? I personally would like to see government getting out of the marriage business. In my perfect world, people could define the relationships on their own, and everyone would be treated equally under the law irregardless of who lives in their home and shares their bed (pedophiles excluded).
And I would ask, if two men can share the same bed, and two women as well, then who are you to say that pedophilia between consenting individuals is not OK? Could a man go to bed with his cat? What gives you the right to say anything is not OK? I mean, shouldn’t those into beastiality, or pedophilia (those in NAMBLA), be condemned? Have they chosen their lifestyle, or were they born that way? By what you’re saying, a man with his cat should have the right to define his relationship on his own. I know that I would not be romantically involved with my cat, but what about the man who feels naturally attracted to his pet/lover?
oops, I meant to say “Should those who are into beastiality or pedophilia be condemned?
R. Brad White says
Glenn, I understand your point, and have two comments. 1) I would deny that a pet or a child can truly consent without manipulation…and so the adult in such cases is abusing them, and 2) I would ask that you be careful in your comparisons…I’ve seen such comparisons greatly offend people (perpetuates an unloving stereotype). As an example, you’ve drawn a comparison between a homosexual man and a pet (non-human). Whether its your intent or not, such comparisons devalue the person being compared. Lastly, who should do the condemning? You, God, our government, or all the above? I’m curious about your thoughts on this.
Here’s a comparison that should not be considered insulting, and will likely become more of a national discussion as this whole marriage redefining progresses. What about polygamy? There are lots of Mormons and Muslims (to name a few) who would like to have a plural marriage. Should they be denied that right? Should children be adopted by groups of people? How should this effect income tax, estate planning, etc?
there will come a day that beastiality,euthanasia and every other horrendous sin’s will be praised by the unregenerate people of earth..Oh its coming,just like all these other sins that are no longer defined as disobeidience against God…I hope Im dead by then.Maranatha
First, I believe true love can only be be expressed through our own belief in God and His Son Jesus. Here is where we learn TRUE love. What we call love comes in many shades and colors. If we know TRUE love, how can we have a deviant desire for a person of the same sex when we are being instrumental in their eternal damnation? Assisting, in that damnation, can hardly be called LOVE! If a person even accepts this lifestyle of a relative, friend or stranger, and says nothing to edify them in the standards of their Creator, then we would not be showing our AGAPE love for them. We would certainly warn a blind man if he were walking on an active train track! This is a parallel to a similar situation. To really love the person, one shows that love, but not for the sin which will condemn them… Celebration, of sin, is where we are at today in the news media, public schools, politics, etc. Go back to the core of this situation today and we find it being the agenda of Satan. Always look at the origin, and the intended outcome, of any activity to determine if it is God or Lucifer you are following. There is really nothing to argue about. It really is cut and dried. You follow your Creator or you don’t…..
This is a good start, and I think the article could be improved with specific actions you could take, ie: when other Christians start hating on homosexuals, try to enlighten them, and if you have any homosexual friends, have a discussion about it so you can learn more about their POV and show them that not all Christians are homophobic.
Real Christians are not “hating ” on homosexuals, they are telling them about repentance and grace. Their POV is the point of view of all sinners, leave me alone and do not point out my sin. And I am sick of the word homophobic. I am not “afraid” of homosexuality, I am disgusted by it. Does anyone know a good Latin root for disgust so we can change from homophobia?
All politics aside, I think the article makes a good point. Christians do have a specific belief about homosexuality being a sin, this shouldn’t be a surprise to anyone. I’m sure every homosexual has heard a Christian tell them this, at some point. But the belief is just like Hindus having a certain belief about eating meat, and Muslims have a certain belief about prayer. These aren’t beliefs that we are willing to relinquish. However, the focus of the article is a good one, that we shouldn’t hide from people who are gay, and then SHOUT this in their face the first time we meet them. I admit, this belief has caused me to be very confused about how I am expected to interact with people I meet who are openly gay. My actions are usually to just avoid and be somewhat withdrawn and even hateful to people who live this lifestyle. I work with several people who choose this lifestyle, and I really had to face a decision. How do I interact with them? The answer…like I interact with anyone else! The fact is that I am no better than anyone on this planet. My beliefs are mine, and I am happy to share them if someone is willing to listen, but the point is…I don’t have to come at everyone (homosexuals included) with an agenda. We should be less focused on “us vs. them” and more like Jesus, who approached anyone just to have a conversation.
“We should be less focused on “us vs. them” and more like Jesus, who approached anyone just to have a conversation.” Jesus Christ did not talk to people just to have a conversation. He talked to people to lead them to Himself and AWAY from their sins. He did treat them with love and respect, but always focused on believing and repenting. Most of the comments on this page and the author seem to think that we should all just live in harmony and acceptance and everything will be alright. Jesus did not live in harmony with the people, they either followed Him or did not. The people who did not follow Him finally got angry with their sin being called sin, and crucified Him. The Homosexual community doesn’t want love or respect, they want us, believers, to stop calling their sin what it is, sin. And if they get their wish, we will have to shut up, or receive what Jesus did. And as believers, that is our ultimate choice.
I am in totally agreement with you, William, when you say that Jesus talked to people not just for conversation but to lead them to Himself or away. The problem is– I’m not Jesus. Jesus had a small opportunity on this earth and when you encountered him, you either followed him or you didn’t. He was miraculous and God. When you encounter God, himself– expect change. Expect it. When you encounter me, flawed sinful me, you can expect a range of outcomes. Hopefully good ones, if I’m allowing the spirit to operate through me. But honestly, I sometimes just offer people a sales report. Sometimes I encounter people and never speak a word of Christ to them. Shameful as that may be, I’m still working through a lifetime of doing what Christ asks of me. I share and disciple and love, and unfortunately, sin.I have to develop some type of relationship with people I work with– so they will understand that it is out of love, that I would extend Christ to them, not out of an agenda that they have no understanding of. They have to see my fruit and desire to follow, because I don’t have followers around me shouting how holy and wonderful I am. I also do not have miracles or signs that I can woo people with. So in some manner of speaking, if God places it upon my heart– I will have to see past the actions to the heart of the one I am speaking to, and not lump them into a “homosexual community” that deserves condemnation. Ill have to see them as Tom, my boss who is struggling with homosexuality. Tom deserves Christ’s love, but he doesn’t want to listen to Charles the guy who yells how sinful he is, instead he’s agreed to have lunch with me. He knows I’m a Christian, but he thinks that I’m different because I’m not picketing his desk with Bible versus about his sins. He is instead drawn to me because I’m different. In other news– I support candidates and legislation that limits the spread of homosexual agendas vehemently. But we cannot expect non believers to behave in Christian ways. We cannot. This sentence: “The homosexual community doesn’t want love or respect, they want us, believers, to stop calling their sin what it is, a sin” is true…. do we expect them to behave differently? That’s satan’s goal.
If you believe the Bible is truth, I challenge anyone to show where in the Bible God mentions he created man or women as a homosexual. Homosexuality is a sin just as most other sins like lying, cheating, thinking of another’s spouse, excessive drinking, cussing, etc. I am a sinner and we are all sinners and one sin is not worse than another. The reason I wrote “most” is I believe homosexulity is living in sin which is different than just sinning. It is different because it is a choice to sin and continue the same sin over and over which is exactly what homosexuality is, a choice. Having an affair with someone of the opposite sex once is a sin while having an ongoing affair is living in sin. God is the only judge and we will all have our day to answer for our sins which is why our goal should be to more like Christ Jesus and not sin. Our only template is the bible which is why I asked the initial question. God loves us all no matter what sins we do against him which means we should all love each other not matter what sins are done agains our God. Great conversation.
Pf says: “If you believe the Bible is truth, I challenge anyone to show where in the Bible God mentions he created man or women as a homosexual” Let me now demonstrate how the above presupposition is a fallacy. To accurately present my point, I will attempt to make a statement, and then prove that statement the same way Pf attempted to prove his/hers. MY STATEMENT: There is no such thing as Native Americans, and there is no such place as North/Central/South America. MY PROOF: I challenge anyone to show me where in the Bible God mentions a people such as native americans or North/Central/South America? God never mentions such a people, or such a place in His word. Therefore I conclude that Native Americans are evil and not of God (actually a belief held by the murderous ‘Christian’ europeans who murdered American Indians). In as much, the claims of a ‘new world’ (the Americas) are nothing more then a lie perpetuated by the Devil to tempt God’s people into adventurous sin. Does anyone else see the fallacy and irrationality in this type of thinking? Not only does it defy the God-given intellectual reasoning capabilities that God blessed us with, but you can’t use a source’s claim as proof, that that very claim is true (a.k.a Circular reasoning). Not to mention that many evil deeds can, and were done falsely in the name of biblical holiness based solely on fallacious interpretation of scripture. Don’t forget the bible’s talk of curses on the descendants of Ham was used as a holy justification for American Slavery, and God’s lack of biblical condemnation of slavery, allowed many Christians to morally rationalize the existence of the Slave industry. So I ask you, just because God/Jesus never ‘biblically’ condemned slavery, does that mean they aren’t for the abolishment of such a practice? Or should we only conclude that they don’t really have a problem with human bondage, and that attempts to abolish it goes against God’s word? Food for thought.
TK But if it reads there are only three types of people X, Y, and Z people and you have faith that whoever wrote that was accurate you would believe there are no Native Americans to use your example. There is no interpretation in the bible. There are several examples where God specifically describes how he did create man to be with woman. God also specifically mentions homosexuality to be a sin which is proof enough for me that God didn’t make anyone a homosexual. But he does give us the choice of being sinners by lying, cheating, stealing, doing things out of anger, judging, and homosexuality. In the end I personally don’t think it matters if anyone thinks they were born with it or not. I know who my Lord and savior is, what he has done for everyone on this earth, and what he has commanded me to do which is to show love to everyone. In the end it is a sin, which I battle every day, to not love the homosexual, the murderer, the liar, cheater, thief, all equally. Thanks for the feedback lets keep the discussion going. PF
To the author of this website, I love what you’re trying to do. It’s long overdue methinks. I’ve been struggling with Christianity for a while now, and though I believe that Christ is separate from the modern commodity that is Fundamentalism, my disdain for modern Christianity has affected my relationship with my Lord. I think you may have a lot of people who come to this sight that may be on the fence about homosexuality. Many think that it is a choice to be gay, when it is not. They compare it to a person having a heterosexual affair outside of their marriage. It’s no wonder why people don’t understand homosexuality. They think that it is an ‘action’. And who could blame them when the word ‘homosexuality’ brings every ‘same-sex activity’, whether positive or negative, under the same banner (i.e same sex pedophilia, and same sex attraction are both considered homosexuality). But the fact of the matter is that homosexuality is not an action. It is not a lifestyle or a choice. It is simply the biological state in which one’s hormones are attracted to people of the same gender. You don’t have to have sex or be in a relationship to be gay. You just simply have to be fully attracted to the same sex. Contrary to popular belief, it is not the physical which causes sexual orientation, but sexual orientation that causes the physical. Perhaps you could do a study about the misnomers of the term ‘homosexuality’, and write an article about it? It would greatly help in my opinion. I mean if you look at the phenomenon of human attraction to the same sex, and the phenomenon of human attraction to the opposite sex, you get the same fundamental elements from each orientation. There’s no difference between the two. Unlike someone cheating on their spouse which is wrong because lies and betrayal are being committed. You hurt your partner. But what is it that separates heterosexual relationships from same sex relationships, to the point where it is imperative that heterosexuality is right, and homosexuality is wrong? Can anyone answer that question? The ‘only’ difference is the capability of producing children through sexual reproduction. And since when did God or nature legislate that the capabilities of reproduction in a relationship, determine whether or not the relationship is right or wrong? Does being able to produce children prove that a sexual act is right? If so, then wouldn’t that mean that heterosexual rape is a righteous act because children are able to be reproduced by it? I just feel like Christians (Ancient and modern) have always conveniently used scripture to promote their hatred. And the usual signs of this are when there is no realistic/logical/rational evidence to back up their bigoted assertions, but there’s always that bible verse… It’s just a cop out. I believe many believers use the Bible to justify their personal, spiritual, and educational complacency.
R. Brad White says
TK, thanks for your comments. I look forward to sharing an article soon about the communication disconnect hetero- and homosexuals have on this topic. We think we are talking about the same thing, but in reality we are talking about different things…such as on this issue or word “choice” as you pointed out. I’ve learned a lot about how that word is misunderstood and misapplied to opposing arguments, by interpreting the word from OUR perspective instead of from the other’s perspective. This is a very important thing we need to educate everyone on. So stay tuned on that. And yes, there is a difference between Christ and His followers. He is God and we are imperfect humans. The other fallacy is attempting to define or describe God, or the goodness or evil of God by looking at what humans do. For example, Why is there evil in the world? It’s not because God is evil…it’s because humans are evil (selfish, egocentric, etc.). More on that another time. Thanks for your comments and for your compliments. We’ll keep it up!
I actually thought I had weighed in on this conversation earlier, but don’t see my own comment, so will join the dialogue a little late. I think it’s certainly possible that some people are born with homosexual tendencies. But that doesn’t negate the fact that homosexual behavior is sinful and forbidden in the Bible. Homosexuality is not the only condition that find itself in this dilemma either. People are also born with other tendencies. Lying, cheating, being selfish, stealing, holding grudges, gluttony and other tendencies often seem as if they were present at birth. Some people who are obese believe they inherited a certain predisposition to obesity from their parents. But that doesn’t negate the fact that gluttony is sinful and forbidden in the Bible. The point is that Christ-followers are called to rise above their human nature and physical tendencies. We are called to live lives with a strict set of standards (boundaries) that are defined by God and spelled out for us in full detail in the Bible.
Sean Santos says
I would be very hesitant to endorse Exodus if I were you. One of the founding members of Exodus considers himself an “ex-ex-gay”, and has some very pointed things to say about the inconsistent methods used by Exodus, as well as the hypocrisy of some of the leaders. Specifically I direct you to: http://www.youtube.com/user/exodusinternational#p/u/6/JOocOqStaoY and http://www.youtube.com/user/exodusinternational#p/u/19/xs-5eBMTcj4 as well as pretty much that entire channel. I’m sure that Michael Bussee is on Exodus’s s*** list, but while I don’t necessarily believe everything he says, he seems to be quite honest about his experiences. I’ll also point out an article that discusses the problems with reporting on ex-gay research: http://www.fair.org/index.php?page=1075 In my experience, there is a quite extensive anti-gay and ex-gay propaganda mill built around NARTH, Exodus, Love in Action, and socially conservative think tanks and lobbying groups (such as essentially any group with “Family” in the name). Unfortunately, they rarely respond to criticism with more and better controlled research into how and when sexual orientation can change. Instead one sees cherry picking of evidence, which is very slow to stop relying on studies which were shown to be poorly controlled or unreliable, and methods which differ wildly from group to group. There’s also an eagerness by most of these organizations to claim that criticism of ex-gay methods are based on some kind of pro-gay conspiracy or political agenda. They may be partially right about this, but it’s not unreasonable to expect that criticism of a program’s efficacy be met with evidence for the program’s efficacy, not distracting insinuations about the influence of the homosexual agenda in the APA. I suppose there’s a sort of counter-example in a study by Jones and Yarhouse on Exodus’s conversion therapy, which was indeed a scientific response to the criticism of Exodus. But the results are not so positive. Out of a sample of only 98, 11 experienced “satisfactory, if not uncomplicated, heterosexual adjustment”, while the rest dropped out, continued in the program after feeling insufficient change, or declared contentment with celibacy. Of these, it’s unfortunately unpredictable how many will end up in the typical ex-ex-gay tragedy, realizing over time that, although they changed their personal self-perception and behavior, but their patterns of attraction are still homosexual. There’s also some murkiness about how many of the 11 were completely gay to start with (as opposed to bisexual); some reported that they remembered being much more gay, but there was no data on what their feelings were when first entering Exodus. They also found the program much more effective at suppressing homosexual desires, than bringing about heterosexual ones. These are not very encouraging results, but they were spun quite positively by the two researchers. It’s possible that Exodus has gotten a few real “success stories”, but it’s very hard not to see it as an organization full of motivational rhetoric about how “change is possible”, and very little clear understanding of how to accomplish their mission.
I really appreciate TK’s openess. I am elated to have a forum where we can have open dialog with each other and be respectful while discussing topics that are so heated, like homosexuality. To me, I wish we could converse in person though, b/c writing can be so impersonal and tone is sometimes inferred wrong. So know that I write this response with an openness to be humble and willing to listen in my conversation with you and thank you—TK for being willing to even have these conversations! The fact that you mention that you are struggling with Christianity, is encouraging. Continue to wrestle with questions and expect answers—even direct from the Lord Himself. There are many times that I had legitimate concerns and truths that I thought I believed and wanted real answers to, and the Lord answered them. Sometimes when I turned to His word, sometimes through other people that I asked. Just know that even though you are wrestling with Christianity, Christ is NOT wrestling with you. He WILL meet you wherever you are. So, that I offer first in humble love to you. Second, I wanted to offer a response to this question you posed: But what is it that separates heterosexual relationships from same sex relationships, to the point where it is imperative that heterosexuality is right, and homosexuality is wrong? Can anyone answer that question? I, being a Christian who you are asking this question of (not specifically but in a Christian based forum) do guide my life by what the Bible says. (In another thread, I would be happy to have dialog with you on why we know the Bible to be authoritative, but for this response let’s operate on the principle that you know Christians respond with this truth. Otherwise, that’s a different argument). The issue at hand is not specifically that the Bible doesn’t say anything about being born homosexual….I actually believe there ARE passages that may even show that men and women could be born gay, Romans 1:24, 26, 28. (though it’s not in the gay community’s favor, because it goes on to mention that because men and women pursued homosexuality and because God does not interfere with our free will…they ultimately received the penalty due to them.) Where I think we have an issue is that you are arguing that because a person is inclined to a specific behavior, that it is a legitimate response to be it. (ie if I am born this way, then how am I suppose to act any different) There’s a book by Joe Dallas, which gives answers to this question. I’ll quote it below: … no where in the Bible is any behavior condemned with a qualification (as in “thou shalt not do this thing, unless though hast an orientation towards it.) Nor does the context of a “loving relationship” justify any sexual sin. The love between two homosexuals cannot make homosexuality legitimate in God’s eyes any more than the love of two people committing adultery justifies the breaking of marital vows. (end quote) You might then agree that even though the Bible does say it’s wrong, it does not specifically say why. But I believe it does. However the answer is not the logical response you are hoping for. (ie- it’s not going to justify the reason why He (Almighty God) is right.) I believe that just because He doesn’t expressly tell me why it’s wrong, does not negate the fact that He does indeed say it is wrong. When you say that the only difference is the capability to produce children, and that by that definition rape would be okay too—your somewhat missing the mark. God said that ALL sex outside of marriage is wrong. That would include non married heterosexual couples, homosexuality, and rape. Let’s stretch further to say that a husband could rape his wife. That is also wrong— I’m assuming that we don’t have to debate over the idea that God created sex for love (?) God uniquely created the first man and woman first to be joined together. Not two men- and not two women. He created one man and one woman and they fit together: and were to become one- in unity. At this point, I will give you this…the Genesis passage does not expressly state that homosexuality is wrong. But logically, this description of creation is provided as the first model for how a relationship should look. Over and over again this model is held up as the standard for what God designed marriage for. Never does scripture commend a homosexual union as favorable. My second response is that we need to clarify the difference between a Christian belief that homosexuality is a sin, and bigotry. Christians who use scripture to back the belief that homosexuality is wrong are not saying that they are less than human and should be treated as such. It’s unfair and inaccurate to confuse a moral position for bigotry. I welcome any of your responses to these comments, Thanks TK
It is a choice whether to sin or not to sin. In the same way heterosexual Christians must daily deny their attractions to members of the opposite sex, people with homosexual attractions can choose to do the same thing. Christ tells us that even looking at another person (besides your spouse) with lust in our eyes is committing adultery! Jesus also defines marriage as an institution between 1 man and 1 woman… so wouldn’t that automatically make homosexuality a sin? For some reason, homosexuals think that Christians are asking them to do something that is impossible (ie, denying their natural tendency to sin)… but God tells ALL people to do this. Homosexuals are not being singled out here; everyone should deny their natural tendency to sin. P.S. I used to be a homosexual and I have been set free and redeemed by the blood of Jesus – this is a topic that is close to my heart because I know how I felt when I was living as a homosexual and I know how I feel now.
Rick Frueh says
The difference is that heterosexuals can righteously satisfy their attractions, while homosexuals cannot. And what do the hermaphrodites do? Choose? The issue is about grace. http://judahslion.blogspot.com/2008/04/inconvenient-truth-matt.html
As a gay man who has been a life long Christian I can clearly say it was NOT a choice for me. I knew in the second grade that there was something different about me. All the praying and fasting never took any of it away. I got married thinking that would cure me. It did not, all I did was mess up the dreams of my wife. Yet through all the wanderings and questioning God stood by my side and never let me down. Nasty cruel things were said about me by my church. Outright disgusting lies. I lost almost all my friends. All but one turned their backs on me. God led me to a church where I am at home and my spiritual gifts are put to use. I lead people into baptism, lead Bible studies and take communion to people in nursing homes. My partner is also heavily involved in church. Call me what you want. Say I am confused, say I am a filthy sinner destined to hell. I don’t care any more. I know the unconditional love of Jesus and that amazing grace and know whatever my problems or sins may be I have an advocate that has wiped them all away!
While Jesus didn’t condemn the woman who committed adultery, he did tell her to leave her life of sin (John 8:2-11). I’m not saying you chose to be homosexual but you can choose not to participate in homosexual activity. The Word of God is clear that homosexuality as a sin. The Bible also talks about choosing to continue in sin after you come to believe in Jesus and the result of that. You daily make a choice whether to die to yourself or not. Jesus calls us to die DAILY, you are choosing not to. I say none of this to make you feel condemned, I just want to clarify the call of Christ.
Robert Jackson says
As an orthodox Catholic who has looked at this topic and Christianity from all sides, I have to agree with the official position of my Church, both because I’m called to follow Church teaching and because I agree with its teaching on this subject. I say “from all sides” because I was not always Catholic and not always serious about Christianity. In simple terms, the Catholic Church, which believes it is doing its job and correctly interpreting the will of God, states that being homosexual is not a sin but engaging in homosexual emotional attachment or sexual behavior is a sin. Therefore, homosexuals are called to celibacy by God. From mine and the Churches standpoint: end of story, subject closed, except to discuss how to deal with that call to celibacy. Our Faith teaches that life is tough, and everybody has some cross to bear. Celibacy is the gay person’s cross. Leftists continually call for the Catholic Church to change and liberalize, but they really do not understand. They cannot seem to grasp that our views are not our views but God’s. We cannot change God’s law, and God cannot be wrong, so he has no need to change or to tell us to change. It just isn’t going to happen.
Jonathan A says
My first post didn’t work, onother try. Interesting articles and interesting topics. Through the years I have approached this topic of Faith and Homosexuality from both a religious and a scientific side, as well as an esoteric approach. I don’t know, however, why “born gay” or “learned behavior” has raised such a big interest both in science and theology. I have through the years I have talked to “gay” and “lesbians”, as well as “straight” people, met many different views and have got a good view on “both sides” of this burning topic. Besides, there are many views, not necessearily polarized into two opposing views. I don’t know if I know more, but I have gained more understanding about diversity (a hated expression in Scandinavia) among people in general. “Chosing a sexual orientation”? I am not sure if I have met any straight or gays who say they have “chosed” their orientation. Scientifically, what would a species gain from tchanging a sexual orientation? Changing a behavior, however, can be i line with a survival instinct. Sexuality, as I have noticed, seems to be rather fixed from young age, but I have med several men and women who have not been sure of their “sexual identity”, they could be referred to as ambivalent in their sexuality, even if it is not so common. Speaking with religious people, I have of course seen clear polarizations of opinions on the origin, cause and effect in that person’s life. They have been convinced that their behavior was not accepted in their environment, and therefor wanted to change. People I have talked to, going through “reparative therapy” have not changed their sexual orientation, but rather their behavior. I was one of them, going through therapy on Courgare UK (not the Catholic one), it did not work, but gave me a deep depression, it still haunting me, more than 15 years later. But some people may experience a social pressure from churces and families to change ther “behavior”.
The problem with this article is not that it errors in saying that Christians are called to love sinners (i.e. homosexuals), it errors in its non-Christian view of sin. Muslims, Hindus, Buddhists, etc…believe the people are basically good deep down, but choose to sin from time to time. Christianity teaches that because of The Fall (See Genesis 1-3) humans are now sinful by nature. Therefore, our spiritual and biological inclination is to sin. The choose of behavior is still there of course, but we never choose to act against our nature (i.e. who we are) apart from the redemptive work of Christ. And even then the sin nature persists. Therefore, when someone says they were born gay, as Christians we can say you may have been, just as we are born selfish, greedy, back-stabbing, gossiping and every other sin. It is who we are by nature and inclination apart from Christ. Sure everyone doesn’t struggle with every sin, but we’re all sinners by nature. So I agree let’s not single out homosexuals for special rebuke, but on the issue of whether being born gay matter, the articles really misses the point
Allow me…first of all, it’s very narrow minded to assume that people could not be born with same-sex attraction. Are people born blind? Deaf? in other ways handicapped? Being gay is NOT handicap…that is NOT my point. My point is that God desires that ALL are healed. That’s what His word says, if that weren’t the case…he wouldn’t have claimed it in Isaiah as well as other places. If you don’t believe that, STOP going to the Doctor. I have dealt with same-sex attraction as early as my first memories. I didn’t learn it, I didn’t see it on t.v. or in any person I was ever around. I didn’t even understand what I was feeling, and everyone around me knew it before I did. Why couldn’t I have been born that way???????? The Bible speaks of curses that extend to the 4th and 5th generations. Why couldn’t sexual sin be one of them? I salute Chick-fil-A, they have integrity in what they’re doing! I am disgusted by the Boy Scouts of America, they are denying a child somewhere the opportunity to relate to others. I think people often forget—Jesus didn’t hang on the cross any longer for the gays!!! I heard that statement at a viewing of an Exodus conference a few weeks ago. Homosexuality is a heart-issue, and it requires having your heart healed. Only Jesus can do that. If anyone thinks their sin is less offensive in the eyes of God, they have no understanding of the God that they say that they represent. There are several good statements in these above mine, but what caught my eye is how many of you referred to “us” over and over again as homosexuals…that’s a label friends, we’re people…people that have been hurt and judged over and over again. The goal isn’t to change from being homosexual to heterosexual, the goal is to change and allow our hearts to be healed…the rest comes later. If you wanna reach someone that struggles with same-sex attraction—love them. Love them like Jesus loved all the misfits that he spent time with! Did you ever wonder why there wasn’t a gay guy at a well that Jesus spoke to and loved on, and then said “sin no more” and sent on his way? Did you ever wonder why it’s not one of the 10 commandments to not be gay? Or did you wonder why Jesus himself never said a word about it??? These questions have plagued me all my life. What I learned recently, is that it wasn’t clear-cut, like the woman in John caught in adultery. There was no ONE ANSWER to the problem. It’s a heart-issue and it varies with every person. There is no way to speak to the sin of homosexuality in just one method and it be applicable to all mankind. The sin ISN’T the issue…the heart is. Change the heart…the sin will find its way out. I have since repented, and I don’t date females anymore. Does that mean I’m not attracted to them? Of course not…THAT is a choice that I make every day. Being attracted to them wasn’t a choice. It’s not a lifestyle, it’s a painful reality. We all must work out our own salvation with fear and trembling. That means we choose each who we will serve. No matter what sin we are drawn to. “I like your Christ. I do not like your Christians. They are so unlike your Christ.”~Gandhi
R. Brad White says
Georgianna, you’ll find the love you seek here. We’re not perfect, and I don’t claim to speak for every visitor who might comment on this post…but I LOVE YOU! I applaud you for speaking out as someone who struggles with the attraction and still makes a God-centered choice. Many homosexuals I have met would condemn you for taking that position…but I praise you for it. And that’s the heart of this article and the heart of this ministry: We don’t care if you were born with the attraction or not (I believe you were)…I am here to extend the love of Jesus Christ to you. That’s all I can do. God’s in charge of the rest. I also agree with your comment about labels/references like “those homosexuals”. It’s hard to avoid labels in this world, but we need to treat each other as people, worthy of respect, all God’s children. Thanks for sharing your heart and thoughts on this important topic.
I am a homosexual. A lesbian. A gay. No matter what you call me, my love lends itself to other women. I know that I was born this way and unlike Georgianna, I don’t feel it was a mistake, I think God knew exactly what he was doing and doesn’t seek to change my heart but to use me in other ways. I am not a christian. I am an atheist some say, agnostic to others. But the truth is, I am simply a searcher. I believe in a God, just not the same one that many of you do. I am a believer of a God however because I have seen his work in its purest perfection – I saw God the day my daughter was born. I named her Gabrielle. It means “devoted to God”. I named her quietly in a prayer that she be able to believe beyond what I had been capable of. . I’m not posting here to argue religion but to simply offer you another human’s perspective and I come to you with a loving and peaceful heart. It is unmistakable that the bible teaches and commands heterosexuality and that my love is a sin in God’s eyes. I will not argue your bible. I will simply say, that from the moment of the gardens we were all sinners and no sin should be greater than another and nobody is without it. I would also like to say, that perhaps, just perhaps, there is more to that bible than can be seen with the human eye, that has gone unwritten, perhaps God left some of life up to us to decide and choose for ourselves – what I mean to say is, is it possible God created me as a homosexual on PURPOSE? That he doesn’t seek to change me but to bring forth change about our world THROUGH me? we can debate all day but at the end of it, there is no winner. There is not a human alive who can prove a single thing, it is all a matter of faith and love and devotion. Continue to seek and to dream and let your hearts be led, I hope that for each one of you, that it leads you to the home you so desire. Thank you for allowing me to comment, J-M
R. Brad White says
J-M, thanks for sharing your comment and story. I’m glad you are a searcher/seeker. I know it can be hard to embrace a religion that can be so mean-spirited toward homosexuals. But if you keep seeking the truth, I believe you will find it in Jesus Christ. “Christians” can be hit or miss, but Jesus is perfectly reliable and loves you unconditionally. Keep knocking on His door, and you will find Him. Peace and blessings to you as well my friend.
Beautifully written JM, I applaud you! Please don’t mistake my comment to imply that I think I was a “mistake”. I wasn’t, and neither were you. That’s the most beautiful thing about our stories, is that we are EXACTLY as God intended us to be. Some may disagree, but if they do it is because they have not opened their eyes large enough to see the master plan, or better yet, the Master’s plan. Does God purpose that we struggle? Of course not. But time and time again he ALLOWED struggles in the Bible, the book of Job is full of unexplainable struggles. The glory of it all, is that He does not tempt us beyond what He provides an escape for. I don’t count my struggles as a bad thing…I praise God for them. For without these struggles, I wouldn’t know some of the most beautiful people that I’ve crossed paths with. I know that God will use my life, His word promises that He came to give life, and give it more abundantly. (John 10:10) Even as I write this, I smile, because I know His plans are more perfect than mine. I’ll need my struggles to speak to others, no one like me would listen to someone that hadn’t walked a mile or two in their shoes. Would you? I pray that God reveals Himself to you in a mighty way, like He has me recently…and of course the only way He can is through another! Be blessed friend!
This is an excellent article! I’m Gay and I think that this is one of the best wriiten pieces i have ever read!
I am in awe of the fact that this first article has spawned a nearly two year old discussion that just seems to get better as it goes. J-M, I agree with Jackie in that what you’ve written excellently captures the dilemma. And as you point out, there is no mistaking that the Bible defines homosexual choices as sin. The problem, as I see it, is that people who find themselves with same-sex-attraction is that they assume it’s a definition. Truly, temptations and definitions are not the same thing. For contrast, consider a glutton or thief, or maybe someone with violent anger. If they concluded that this is “just how God made me,” we would tell them that’s ridiculous. We would say that they have those temptations to do wrong as a result of the fall of mankind — but that God expects them to struggle against those temptations and that He intends to assist with victory when they engage in that struggle consistently and faithfully (with Him). Why would it be any different for someone with same-sex-attraction? When people who say they struggle with same-sex-attraction or gluttony or lust or whatever … I can’t help but think to myself, “That’s a good thing. You should struggle with that!” In fact, God is honored when we struggle against our natural inclinations to do what He has defined as wrong. So we should keep struggling faithfully, prayerfully, and sincerely. God will reward our struggle (Matthew 5:3-12).
Robert W. says
The difference Larry, is that there isn’t a biological basis for thievery. As a biologist, I’m convinced by the evidence that same sex attraction is determined early in development, most probably before birth. We don’t know the exact mechanism, but it is most probably a combination of genetics and hormones.
Oh this belief that one is born to be an abomination to the Lord is ridiculous.Leviticus and the book of Romans chapter 1 completely explains this topic of homosexuality.God bless us all and teach us to love one another as Christ loves His true church.Maranatha,Jeannette
I cannot say whether someone is born that way or not. It has not been given to me to do so.i have a handful of people in my family who consider themselves to be gay. I myself have had relational experiences tjis way and even thought myself to be gay at one time. Christ does not reject people but He does call us to repentance. The woman vcaught in adultery He said neither do I condemn yougo in peace lest something worse come upon you. Each of us comes from sin. Noone is exempt. But each one of us is called to turn from our own ways. When someone becomes aware and desires a change it is not always automativ. Do you cast them away because they are struggling? Does God cast me away because I struggle in some areas? No, but i do reap what i sow. The fruit will always reveal its source. However, what do tou do when there is no repentance? We still love but where Christ is not received we continue forward. In the meantime donot reject bevause you donot understand something. Trust God to lead you. Surrender your sins. Jesus delivered us from bondage. May we begin to believe what he says about us in Him and begin to walk in true freedom.
My comment is not directed to the writer. Im writing to Christians in general. We are called to be lights in the world. Its both in acceptance of people but also in leading in the way they should go. Our words mean nothing if they are not followed by action. Our actions reveal what we truly believe.
Dear Bonnie, you are correct; faith without actions is dead, however, our actions do not always reflect what we truly believe. I love my Lord and Savior more than life itself, it is my true desire to follow His ways. I am more-than homesick for Heaven, yet not one single day passes when, even to the best of my abilities, that ALL my actions reflect what is truly in my heart. The Holy Spirit who dwells within me let’s me know immediately when I’ve sinned because it grieves Him and I am (gently) convicted. As for the times when I sin “unaware,” I am not held accountable, however, by the grace of God, He will reveal my sin(s) to me in His perfect timing, as it is His desire to bring me more and more into the likeness of Christ with each passing day I spend on this earth. Only in Heaven will ALL of our actions reveal what we truly believe. God singles out homosexuality. He also singles out unforgiveness and hypocrisy. Who am I to challenge the God of the Universe? He made the rules, not I. I am just a mere servant, living by His grace and mercy. My goal is an eternity spent with Him. I think therein lies the problem with most human thinking. We tend NOT to think eternally, but in the short-term. It is foolish for us to live for temporary earthly pleasures (whether it be sexual, monetary, our status, our careers, hobbies, etc.) when not one of them will last! We must lean into Him, seeking His will for our lives if we are truly to become His church, one body, one mind in Christ. To say WE MUST TREAT HOMOSEXUALS WITH LOVE AND RESPECT is a tall order. I have no animosity towards any person because of what they do behind closed doors, but I will say that the command of “MUST” is probably unattainable for MOST of us. I testify on the first-hand knowledge that I love my husband and children with all my heart and soul,(definitely more than any other early possession) yet I still fail to love & respect them the way Christ commands. There are times when the words I say are hurtful, times when I am selfish with my love, and times when I discipline out of anger. It is NOT because I don’t love them!! I do!! Sadly, it is because I am human. And I will never be able to absolutely love ANYONE the way that God desires me to love them until He brings me into completion on the day I am raised to be with Him in Heaven. In the meantime, it doesn’t negate me from continuing to try. Nor does this belief negate our call to try to live for the standards set forth in His Word. We are told not to rely on our own thinking but to trust Him in every way and He will make our paths straight. God defines marriage as a union between one man and one woman. It is a mystery that the two become one, but that is how God designed it. God designed sex to be a benefit of marriage. So a person who one, (LGBT or not) who knowingly fornicates outside of marriage also knowingly sins against God (unless they have never heard the Truth). I believe God has something to say to those who live in sin and then try to justify their sin, but who am I to point out the splinter in someone else’s eye when I’m probably walking around with a 2×4 plank in my own eye?? In Romans 7:14-25 (NLT), Paul states the tragedy of our humanity with precision: “So the trouble is not with the law, for it is spiritual and good. The trouble is with me, for I am all too human, a slave to sin. I don’t really understand myself, for I want to do what is right, but I don’t do it. Instead, I do what I hate. But if I know that what I am doing is wrong, this shows that I agree that the law is good. So I am not the one doing wrong; it is sin living in me that does it. “And I know that nothing good lives in me, that is, in my sinful nature. I want to do what is right, but I can’t. I want to do what is good, but I don’t. I don’t want to do what is wrong, but I do it anyway. But if I do what I don’t want to do, I am not really the one doing wrong; it is sin living in me that does it. “I have discovered this principle of life—that when I want to do what is right, I inevitably do what is wrong. I love God’s law with all my heart. But there is another power] within me that is at war with my mind. This power makes me a slave to the sin that is still within me. Oh, what a miserable person I am! Who will free me from this life that is dominated by sin and death? Thank God! The answer is in Jesus Christ our Lord. So you see how it is: In my mind I really want to obey God’s law, but because of my sinful nature I am a slave to sin. In closing, I would like to say that this article and all the comments have been very enlightening. I walk away having acquired a broader scope of my brothers’ and sisters’ burdens as well as their beliefs which in turn has caused me to refine my own beliefs with the Word as my guide. In light of what I have learned here, I realize no amount of prayer is ever enough (we ALL need it) and I humbly thank you for allowing my voice to be heard. For what it’s worth, I pray we will ALL meet in Heaven. 🙂
Colonel Phil. says
I Have Both a Question and a Comment…I Am A Believer and Follower of The Teachings of Jesus Christ. . . I Study Only The Four Gospels. . . I See The Laws of The Old Covenant…..Fulfilled….I Judge No One as My Master Commands…..I made a Request of GOD…..Sorta Like Solomon Did….Except I Asked To Understand GOD’S View of ……LOVE…..I Also Added a Disclaimer…..I Was Aware That Solomon Was Given Wealth ….and Power because GOD Was Impressed At His Humble Request…..My Request To GOD Was Specifically Targeted To Understanding of HIS LOVE…..Not Riches or Power So I Asked GOD NOT To Give Me Wealth or Power For I Am Aware of My Human Nature And Such Things Would Corrupt Me…….My Request Was Granted By His GRACE…..I Now Love ALL Mankind…..For Within Each Human There Is A Soul…..and Within Each Soul is A Measure of Faith…..Which I See As Being…..A Small Spark of GOD…..To Be Drawn To Christ at The Father’s Will……Therefore I Love My Neighbor as Myself…..and Therefore Can Begin To Love GOD With My…..ALL……I No Longer Hold To The Modern Concept of Church…I See It As A Distraction Put Into place To….Thin The Herd if You Will……I Do Not Study The Letters of Paul as the “Church” Does……Jesus Told Me That I Could Do ALL The Things He Did and Even More…..and HE Was Sinless….and Though We Cannot Be Born Sinless as Was HE……But We Can Strive To Obtain Perfection and Sinlessness…If We Truly Follow HIM……Paul Basically Said…..I Can’t Help Myself But To Sin…….I Do Not Hold To Such Teachings……The Bible Tells Us Not To Say Where We Believe ANYBODY is…..Not Heaven and Not Hell…..and …..I Care Not if Someone is Gay or Not…..and as Far As Them Being Able To Chose…..Well One Has only To Study The Effects of Alcohol on an Unborn Fetus…..and Realize That Mankind Has Abused That Alcohol Since Before The Days of Moses…..Well…..You Then Find The Answers To Such Questions as ……”Why Are There Serial Killers”……and They Are Just The Extreme of One End of The Spectrum……There Are Many Effects That Seem Lesser….such as Autism…..and a Wide Variety of Other Effects…..Even Genius Can Come From Such Effects…..So Can They Help It???….I Believe Not….and I Too Have No Concern What Goes On Behind Someone Else’s Closed Doors. . .And The Modern Concept is Corrupt….With Hypocrisy….They Profess Christ But hold Grudges and Unforgiven Issues Within their Hearts……I No Longer Go to Church….Though I Spent Forty Years Seeking Truth Within The “Church”…..I Found Only Hippocrates and Dissension Within It’s Walls…..And “Church” Holds To Picking and Choosing What They Wanted Out of The Bible and Calls It’s Self The House of GOD But Jesus Teaches That The Heart of Man Is The Dwelling Place of GOD…..Not The Temple…..And the Modern Concept of Church Has Become Nothing More Than What Jesus Taught Against….The Temple…..I See Pieces of Truth In ALL View Points……But I Hold To what I Believe Is The Pathway To ….Truth…..and The ONLY Way That Pathway Can Be Traveled…..Is Through Following The Teachings of The Master… . . .If I Could Change The Modern Concept of Church…..I Would Rebuild It To Be More Of What Christ Spoke…..Where Two or THREE Are Gathered In My Name….I will Be In The Midst……Not Two Or Three ….Hundred or Two Or Three Thousand and The “Preachers” of These Huge Unitarian Churches With All Those People….Are Getting Filthy Rich Yet There Are Children In This Country That Go Hungry……I Do Not See the Need of Preachers…..I See The Passing of The Teachings of Christ as The Responsibility of The Parents of Each Child To Introduce Them To The Understanding Of the Master’s Teachings….Two Or Three….Man and Family…..Immediate Family and Maybe a Friend and His Family….Or another Member of Your Extended Family…Such as A Brother or Sister….Aunt And Uncle…..Small Groups….. Thus Creating…..What Would You Say???…There Are Approximately 350 Million People In The U.S…..For The Sake of Argument Let’s Say That Half of Them Profess Belief In Christ.. . . Then The “Two Or Three”…Or Small Group….Then The Change I Would Propose Would Then Create 175 Million…….”Churches”…….There Is Only One Christ.. . . .Only One Way To GOD or Heaven For The Christian….Then There Should Be Only One View Among……”Christians”……Yet We Have More “Denominations” Than There Are Major Religions On This Earth…….For Forty Years I Fell Into the Confusion That is …..”Church”……I Now Follow Only My Master’s Teachings…..And I Love ALL……For It Is His Command….And It Is The Toughest Job…..You Will Learn to Love. . . .Does GOD Speak To You My Friend?…..If He Does.. . . .It Can’t Be Denied Within Your Heart For It Leaves The Mark That Is The Expansion of Your Faith……and You Will Not Doubt It Within Your Heart ….As I May Have Said ….I Followed The Modern Concept of Christianity For Forty Years. . . And Was Called Out of That Concept By GOD. . . and More Literally Than You Might Assume… . .It Took Me From ….”Living A Life for The Lord”…..To Walking With GOD. . . There Is So Much More I Would Love To Share With You But I Tend To Get a Bit Loquacious As I Have Been On A Long Communion With God and I Am Allowed To ….Indulge My Human Nature….(Moderation In ALL Things is The Key To The Beginning of a Life Without ….Sin…It Is Possible….But Still Takes Most If Not All of A Man’s Life To Achieve…..) and Allows Me To Express And Share ….Thank You For Your……Allowance of My Post….May The Father…..Be With You.
Rafael Bocanegra says
I have no idea who you may be but this much I can tell you have never read the word of GOD.
John Collignon says
i I would disagree,this man may not conform to your biblical rendering, but he has read the Bible which IS the word of GOD. As far as him misconstruing His word; you may judge if you wish. I feel better letting those pointed to teach the word provide the path of truth aided with God’s wisdom, to impart the truth to this fellow. If you are another reader of the Gospel you can disagree, but reading his input I disagree you can say he hasn’t read the word of God! He has made to many allusions to the good book to be chance;I tend to think he may have interpreted the Bible wrongly, if not too well.
I love this article, it is such a great beginning towards healing the sins of hatred & hypocrisy. In the past 24 hours I’ve did some historic research on the first 5 books of the Old Testament and read Exodus, Lev., Numbers and Deuteronomy. What I learned is 613 laws, commandments and decrees were given, by God, to Moses. God was pretty adamant that ALL of these be kept. 2 of the commands pertain to men sleeping with men, and men and women wearing each others clothes, (does that mean no jeans and t-shirts, girls?) The others, which every one owes it to themselves to read, cover everything from tabernacle, priest and sabbath instruction to social issues and diet instructions. For instance, if your child misbehaves and won’t listen to you, you should deliver him/her to the priest to be stoned. Men are not to cut the sides of their hair or trim their beard. We shouldn’t wear clothing made of 2 different fibers and men should put tassels on the 4 corners of their coats. Not only is pork forbidden but eating meat that contains any blood (steak,?) shellfish, rabbit and snake is forbidden. This is just the tip of the iceberg but the thought that comes to my mind, at this point, is we’re ALL in trouble if we choose to live by the law. Thankfully, God, in His infinite mercy, has blessed us with the opportunity to know Jesus Christ and accept him as our Savior, Lord and King. So, after reading the Old Testament books, I went over the the NT to reread the words that Jesus spoke to all of us, everything He told us about the Law, about judging others, and about how we should live our lives. And, for about the millionth time in my life, I was lead to His exhortation to love God with all our heart, soul and mind and to love our neighbor as we love ourselves. But, here’s the best part. Someone asks Jesus, “Who is my neighbor?” and what does Jesus tell Him? He tells him the story of the good Samaritan. And, not once did the Samaritan stop to ask the injured man what his spiritual affiliation or sexual orientation was. He simply loved and cared for him, the way Jesus loves and cares for each one of us, in spite of our failures, our sins, our humanity. I like your post Col. Phil. I like a lot of these posts, some brought tears to my eyes. I feel blessed to share with all of you.
wyn harter says
IT DOESN’T MATTER EITHER WAY ACCORDING TO SCRIPTURE. WE CAN JUSTIFY ANYTHING WE LIKE TO FIT OUR LIFESTYLE, WHETHER IT BE A “WHITE LIE”, TAKING SOMEONE’S SMALL CHANGE LAYING ON THEIR DESK, LUSTING AFTER ANOTHER WOMAN AND SOFORTH. IN LIFE WE MUCH MAKE CHOICES, AND OUR CHOICES ARE DETERMINED GOOD OR BAD, RIGHT OR WRONG, SINFUL OR NOT BY “THE BOOK”, BETTER KNOWN AS GOD’S WORD OR THE BIBLE. IT IS A CHOICE, ENOUGH LIGHT GIVEN TO MAN, TO DETERMINE THE TRUTH. IF MAN TRULY SEEKS GOD’S TRUTH, ABOVE his OWN TRUTH, HE WILL GO INTO HIS WORD, STUDY, LISTEN, STUDY AND PRAY. AND, WE ARE TO LOVE ALL THOSE OUT-SIDE HIS WORD…TO LOVE OUR ENEMIES, THOSE AGAINST HIS WORD. I HAVE HAD FRIENDS LIVING IN THE LIFESTYLE OF HOMOSEXUALITY, AND THEY PREFERRED IT. GOD GIVES EVERY MAN A CHOICE TO FOLLOW HIM OR NOT! UNFORTUNATELY, THIS IS NOT A LIFESTYLE THAT WILL GO AWAY….AS IT DIDN’T IN THE ROMAN EMPIRE. THEREFORE, AS A FOLLOWER OF CHRIST, I CHOOSE TO FOLLOW THE WAY OF GOD’S WISDOM AND HIS WORD, THROUGH HIS SON, RATHER THAN THE WISDOM OF MAN! “simply said” wyn harter
Robert W. says
It absolutely DOES matter. First, let’s set aside the if question. I’m a biologist and I find the evidence for a biological origin convincing. There is zero evidence for a psychological origin. There are distinct differences in neurological patterns in the brain and these are fixed early in development. This is hardware, not software, and it can’t be changed. Someone born with a same sex attraction will always have a same sex attraction. There are also bisexuals and there are far more female bisexuals than males. While they can be attracted to either sex, remember that no one chooses who they fall on love with. So what does this mean for Christians? It means LGBT people are MADE this way. We are as much a part of God’s creation as heterosexuals. It is NOT a symptom of being fallen. This must be taken into account when understanding the Word. I believe the passages concerning homosexuality are some of the most misunderstood passages in the Bible and that this misunderstanding has resulted in a doctrine that has led to over a thousand years of persecution. This is one of the great failings of the Christian Church and, as a Christian myself, I find it very painful that the Church has been the source of so much hatred and harm. We know better now and that doctrine must change. Continuing to persecute without reason can only harm the Church. I urge you to go back and reread not just the verses, but the whole chapter and book that each comes from. Then look at what was happening when they written. The history and cultural context is important if we are to understand the problems that the authors were actually trying to address. Go back to the Greek and Hebrew to consider what some of the words actually mean. Translation can be misleading. I have been taught both as Christian and a scientist to constantly question. Sometimes the answer isn’t what I expect and sometimes it disagrees with what I’ve been taught. But the end result always makes my faith stronger. Don’t be afraid to question.
Andrew James Simmons says
I am a homosexual trying to live my life as Christian as possible. I have been gay for almost as long as I can remember. I remember in school I was only attracted to boys even in the 2nd grade. The funny thing is when I was that young I didn’t even know it was an issue with anyone else in the world. As I grew I was subtly pressured into being attracted to girls which never really stuck with me. From the beginning I believe my attraction to the same sex was more psychological than sexual. I’m guessing I was born psychologically attracted to the same sex. Am I evil? Oh yeah, I am now 29 years old.
Robert W. says
Andrew, can you define what you mean by psychological? I think I understand what you mean but I don’t want to lead your answer. When I say it’s biological in origin, I’m saying that we are born with a partially feminized brain structure. This is the “hard wiring” that leads to the psychology to which you refer. No, you’re not evil. We’re all sinners and are forgiven by the grace of God through Jesus Christ. But being as God made you is not a sin. In fact, it was only once I accepted myself as gay and understood what I needed to be a fulfilled person that the barriers I had put up between myself and God started to come down. You see, I hated myself for having these thoughts that I had been taught are sinful and I thought God hated me too. By loving myself I could open my heart to God’s love. I’m closer to God as an open gay man in a committed relationship than I’ve ever been before in my life. Sin can’t do that.
Andrew James Simmons says
How far back can you remember being truly heterosexual? Was it psycological or sexual when you knew for sure?
Andrew James Simmons says
Were you aware that it was widely accepted, or were you unsure?
People are NOT born gay, The Lord created us ALL in his image and we KNOW that homosexuality is a sin. Homosexuality is a demon that preys on the young & that is why many have said that they started to feel the way they do when they were little. Homosexuals that have grown to know Christ but yet STILL struggle with their temptations, I believe that as long as they remain celebate & rely on God for the rest & do their best to stay away from EVERYTHING that might make them stumble & seek the Holy Spirit, They can rebuke these demons in the name of Jesus & make them flee. But they must first recognize & acknowledge the truth.
So if I knew that I was a thief from the time I was a young man, that makes it alright to be a thief now? If all I wanted to do was to have sex with every girl in High school, that makes it alright now? I mean, I was born that way. Gods word says in 1 Corinthians 6 who will NOT be in heaven, so I have a choice to make. Do I continue to lie, steal, and commit adultery ect… or do I repent of my sins and let the blood of Jesus who died on the cross cover them by faith in his word. You have a choice to make, read the book of Romans.
Robert W. says
It’s a false analogy John. How many thieves claim to be born that way? Virtually none. Almost every single gay person will tell you they are and science leans toward confirming that view. Also, thievery has a victim, consensual relationships do not. It’s still wrong to allow people to victimize others.
Analogies aren’t proofs; they are illustrations. But virtually no human being can remember anything prior to about 2-3 years old. So, no homosexual can honestly claim “since birth,” and most that I know, including family members, will stake this claim in vociferous self-defense — but when not under attack will share that they also have attraction toward the opposite sex on occasion and will recount catalytic incidents in their early lives that spawned the sinful same-sex attraction. Studies have shown for nearly a century the root causes of homosexuality — all psychological — and none proven to be legitimate that have shown a biological connection. “Born this way” is a wish and an excuse, a demand for acceptance of something that is unacceptable in God’s eyes, but which cannot be remedied in one’s own strength. He didn’t make people same-sex attracted, any more than he made pedophiles or flashers or drug addicts or alcoholics or thieves. Should we love gays as we would any other sinner? Yes. Do they want to be that way? No, not until modern society and pressure told them accept what is unacceptable. The truth in love is hard, and often leans toward truth without love, but that doesn’t make the truth the problem. And no one is going to find peace apart from the truth, though love can lead them to it. Even Christians who struggle with same-sex attraction need this peace, just as does any believer beset by a sin pattern. I don’t know where Mr. White comes by his belief that they are born this way, it surely isn’t science and it surely isn’t by the Word of God. But seeing that he was born again only recently, he probably shouldn’t have taken it upon himself to change the face of Christianity. It seems that his desire to reach his goal is outmatched by his familiarity with and ties to the world. Scripture would admonish such a one to wait until he’s reached a new level of maturity in Christ before handling the Word of God and things of the Spirit.
R. Brad White says
Rick, I appreciate your comment. I encourage you to go back and re-read the article (not just the running comment thread). My whole point with this article is that even though neither side is going to agree (or likely actually know one way or the other) whether homosexuals are born that way, we are to love them…just as you agreed in your comment above. My experience isn’t unusual I don’t think. I’ve known and discussed this issue with many folks and my point of view is certainly influenced by people’s actual experiences regardless of what I may want to believe. Here is a tough issue for possibly you to accept. God does make people exactly how he intends to make them. Or do you believe God makes mistakes? Or do you believe in a hands-off deistic God? It’s not up to you or me to decide whether he got it right. He IS God and he did get it right. What’s most difficult is trying to have the mind of God (which we can’t ever truly fathom)…and understand why he would make us one way or another…with certain struggles of one kind or another in this life. Ultimately, for people he has called, those struggles will lead them back to Him. We are to love them through such struggles. Now, regarding your last few sentences (where you attempt to discredit the messenger), trust me when I say this…this is NOT my goal or my mission. I am simply answering God’s calling in my life…following where He is leading me. If you were like me, and God tapped you on the shoulder and said, “Go, change the face of Christianity, and here is the burden I’m placing on your heart”, would you deny God his will? I would hope not. For me, I’m simply following God’s will for my life. If that puts you and I on different sides of a theological or biological fence, all I can say is that I’m siding with God’s directive in my life. I wish you peace and many blessings my friend.
Robert W. says
Brad, I don’t think you have a love problem. You have a doctrine problem. The doctrine that says that homosexual acts are willful disobedience to God and abhorrent to him inevitably leads to the kinds of statements made on this page and worse. Even if said in love, this is animus that generates open hostiltility to LGBT people in others if not in yourself. When I realized that the church was the source of most of the hostility to gays, I cried. That the church in this day is the cause of hate is the opposite of everything I have been taught Christianity is to be. What other sin applies to only a distinct group of people with a certain biological trait? While we all have sin we struggle with, it is ridiculous to think we are BORN with a particular sin. It is also ridiculous to think that we aree born to live lives of loneliness and never know the comfort of being with someone we love. That’s not from God, it’s just unthinkingly cruel. You have only to look at the results of the doctrine to see this is not from God. Has he blessed it? Does it save souls? No, and this is a large part of the reason for the decline of the church. People reject institutions that they see as treating groups unfairly. I’m speaking of the increasing number of people who no longer see Christianity as relevant to their lives, not gays. Most LGBTs leave a church that tries to force an impossible (God does not grant that prayer) change. They are frequently separated from their families. Teenagers are cast out on the streets to fend for themselves. Even worse, gay teenagers rejected at home and church and bullied in school find life intolerable and end it. Their blood is on the church’s hands. Many pastors and theologians have realized the harm this doctrine does, not just to LGBTs but to the very fabric of what the church is. They look at the bible as a whole and find ways to accept LGBT people as people who just happen to differ in a relatively minor respect. I’m not saying that this is what you have to do. But if you truely wish to change the face of Christianity, you’re going to have to dig deeper than just trying to say the same thing with love.
As a Christian who follows the Word of God, I state the fact that we live in a fallen world. Sin, be it thievery, lying, fornication, etc. is part of this fallen world. Sexual perversion is also part of living in a fallen world. Jesus states that “no one can enter the Kingdom of God unless he be born again.” Being “born again” means to be born OUT of ADAM, the man of sin; and into the family of Abraham; following Jesus. When sinners (and all of us were born in sin; we are all born “sons of Adam” ) become born in Jesus Christ, and accept Him as their Lord and Savior, SIN HAS NO DOMINION OVER THEM. The Holy Ghost, the convictor and counselor, leads us into all truth and understanding about ourselves, including any sin nature we have, and then He works to purge us of that sin. That sin may be lying, fornication, homosexuality, perversity, stealing, gluttony, racism, pride, arrogance, whatever. So can we “be born that way”? Of course, because we are born in sin! We must be re-born OUT OF IT. The key, as a Christ-follower, is to be led by the Holy Ghost and to profess with love, respect, and conviction the true word of God; including how Jesus can remove any sin obstacle in their life that would keep them from walking His Walk, from living a godly life led by the Holy Ghost, because if you don’t- if you tell people that their sin is “OK,” or “acceptable” , even tho you know that God has said the opposite, you change what God has already said about it. You overwrite what He has already written. Love them enough to tell them the truth. And the truth will set them free!
Sandra Carpenter says
Let’s go back to the beginning…shall we. God created man, then He said it is not good for man to be alone….So…he put Adam to sleep and took something out of him that was already in him…a rib and created Eve. Now…God said He is a Triune Being…Father, Son, Holy Spirit. He created man in His image…A triune being…we are a spirit, soul in a human body. Now when the bible speaks of soul, it is used in a feminine term…David says, “Let My Soul Make HER Boast In The Lord.” Whenever you see Spirit, it is used in masculine terms oftened referred to as the spirit man. So…we have both a masculine (spirit) and feminine side (soul) within each and every one of us. The soul is our mind…the visual, senses. The spirit is deep within and even God himself said that the devil toucheth it not. Notice in the garden how the devil approached Eve, not Adam. Eve was the feminine…the mind…He did not go to Adam…the masculine side…the spirit. It is the same today…how are people tempted to begin with…the visual, the mind. That is where satan enters. I believe that with having both these sides created in us…spirit (masculine) and soul (feminine)…we are subject to satan decieving us to go against God’s divine order in our lives. I believe everyone has a choice…it is up to God Almighty to see the Heart’s condition. I believe as Jesus said…when you have broken one…you have broken them all. Are you homosexual…do you lust in your heart, do you gossip, do you lie…so where you break one…you break them all. So like the woman who was thrown at the feet of Jesus for adultery…I am thankful that He is the only one who could have compassion and grace and know the condition of that’s woman’s heart, who would go on to follow Him all the way to the cross. Though i myself choose not to be gay, I can only hope and pray that I myself may find that same compassion and grace in Jesus for areas in my life that still need alot of grace!! So once again I leave by saying…examine your own hearts…before you take the splinter out of your brother’s eye…be sure you have removed the plank from your own. Judge not…lest you be judged!! K.I.S.S The WhomSoEver
David Hill says
We are all sinners. But the sins God abhors are blasphemy and homosexuality, as he pointed out in His Word. God also (after the Flood?) restricted marriage between close relatives. SO restrictions on marriage are written into our laws now and into God’s Word. Marriage has been defined until 25 (?) years ago as between members of the opposite sex. Folks are still trying to change the word “marriage” to have a different meaning so as to disguise their sins of adultery and homosexuality, and maybe even failing to honor their mother and father (not their two fathers). Consider how many euphemisms are in our language for various sins, (“steal” is a good example). From my understanding of how Christ would have us act, we are not to judge one who is not a believer, but, as I understand Christ’s teaching, we ARE to love and admonish our brethren when they continue in sin.
Evangelist Michael E Parker says
Having love for the “lost” in this world is what we are commanded to do. That “love” is for one purpose, and one purpose only..to bring the lost to the cross, and to show them how Christ died for their sin. The blood shed from Christ, can cleanse ANY man or women of their sin. Is homosexuality a sin..yes it is, in so much as fornication, adultery, bestiality, idolatry, drunkenness, revelries..of the such, as Paul stated in I Cor 6..these who “practice ” this sin, shall not inherit the Kingdom of Heaven. Are we to associate ourselves with these types of people? NO we are not. Paul states in Galatians 5 that we are not to associate with those of the world who commit these sins and separate ourselves from this. He goes on to say that if a brother in Christ is doing these things, not only to stop associating with him, but not to even sit and eat with him. For he is not your brother. Paul calls out a man who claims he is in Christ, but is sleeping with his Step Mother. Paul does not use what Jesus states in Matthew Chapter 18…he calls the man “wicked”, and to have those in the Church remove him..ask him to leave..because of his profession was false, and his actions proved it. Therefore, are thoughts and gestures and obedience hinges on only one thing in this Christian walk with Christ..conforming to the will of God. God is not in the business of making mistakes…we as people and humans do that. There is no predisposed gene that someone is born with that makes them “homosexual”..nothing is new under the sun. Paul writes in Romans Chapter 1 how the children of Israel were treated by God when they were deep into sexual sin, homosexuality, and lawlessness. God TURNS his face away from such, allows those who do such things to have a mind that will be seared and reprobate, and gives them the due penalty of their sin. The wrath of God is revealed from heaven when men try to “suppress” the truth.. You cannot..and I repeat cannot be a Christian, and live a life as an adulterer, fornicator, drunk, drug addict, homosexual, idol worshiper, slanderer, gossiper…these are not the earmark of the “proof” of your salvation. They are the fruit of a bad tree as Jesus explains in Matthew Chapter 7 Salvation is a free gift, and all who call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved..but the “proof” of that salvation, is a regenerated heart and mind that has been given to you, to conform to the will of God. To turn from our wickedness and sin, and live a life that is holy and separate from the world and from our previous life. This is a miracle when it happens…it is not a New Years Eve resolution…it is not a desire to be a better person….it is truly a miracle that takes place when one is saved. We take on the mind of Christ, and the heart of God..and love those that are lost. We love our brothers and sisters in Christ, and also reason with them in their walk and use scripture to correct, re-proof, and rebuke. The teachings of Christ, and what Christ did for those who were in sin, was slightly different from what you and I have the capability to accomplish. Christ was sent into the world to bare the sin of the world. He also was sent as the Savior, and the Messiah. HE was then, and is now, the Lord and Savior sitting at the right hand of the father. He died for us…lay down his life for us..while we were yet sinners…hoping that we would come to the foot of the cross and receive salvation. You or I cannot do such a thing..God did not make you or I Jesus..he made his only begotten son Jesus. Therefore, the instructions of Christ, the disciples, the Apostles, are all divine instruction. They all work together for the good of and the advancement of The Kingdom of God. We are to teach and instruct those teachings, and pray, love, and also rebuke those that may take sound doctrine, and turn it upside down to meet their agenda. We are to continue to love our brother who is in sin…never to slander him or gossip about him…but also in private conversation, reason with him, rebuke or reproof him, and correct him so his sin can be uncovered, and brought to light so he may see the error of his way. ALL IN LOVE…not to bible thump or to use scripture to condemn..God is the only one who passes the final judgement of sin. This is further validated with Jesus and Matthew Chapter 7..Verses 1-4 state that we are not to judge…for if we judge we will be judged with the same measure…Jesus tells us we are Hypocrites if we do this. He also gives us the proper instruction to go to our brother in verses 1-4, by taking the plank out of our eye, so that we can see clearly how to remove the speck of dust out of our brothers eye. Christs own words shows us that man kind may judge others for something we ourselves are guilty of. So those who do so, are truly not seeking the truth, but trying to reproof others before re-proofing themselves. Correct your mistakes first, and then you can see clearly how to help others. The rest of Matthew Chapter 7 tells us how we shall know those that follow this instruction by the fruit they bare. It tells us how narrow the gate is to eternal life…and how narrow the path is. It takes hard work and obedience to follow Christ…it will cost you everything. It is not something we should take lightly. Christ’s yoke is easy..he pulls with us. But we must do our part in Christ, who strengthens us. The Homosexual Agenda, and the acceptance of Homosexual marriage, will be, and is NOW the judgment of God upon this nation. God has lifted his hand and has turned his face against this nation, it’s leaders, and its people without Christ. It is a fearful thing to fall into the hands of an angry God. Pray for healing..pray for homosexuals to be miraculously saved, pray for God’s mercy.. The children of Israel, when they reached this point as we have, were allowed to be taken as slaves for 75 years. They were killed…raped…and God’s hand of protection was removed. What makes ANYBODY think that God would not allow this to happen with our nation? Ignorance is what makes this happen. My people perish because of their lack of knowledge… Get right with God, read scripture daily, live your life and abide by the commandments of Christ..love and pray, and come out from among them..be ye holy… Evangelist Michael E Parker http://propheciesoftheendtimes.com
Therefore if any man be in in Christ, he is a new creature: old things are passed away; behold, all things are become new. (2 Cor 5;17) . Yet Bisexuals, fornicators, homosexuals, drunkards ,smokers etc still claim to be Christians. Gal 5; 19 When you follow the desires of your sinful nature, the results are very clear: sexual immorality, impurity, lustful pleasures… 21 …,that anyone living that sort of life will NOT inherit the Kingdom of God PASTORS, please don’t just preach LOVE and more LOVE…while sinners are dying. Homosexuality is an Abomination in the eyes of the lord, so let the truth be known . Rather be hated for preaching the truth, than being loved for preaching what people want to hear. Repent for the kingdom of God is near, that is the Gospel(Good News) you can tell your loved ones.
Your question “Are Homosexuals born that way and does it really matter?” brings to mind the time Jesus and his disciples passed by a blind man. The disciples asked Jesus if it was the man’s or his parents’ sin that caused him to be born blind. Jesus answer was that his blindness wasn’t due to sin, but “that the works of God might be displayed in him.” It comes to mind not as a comparison of homosexuality to blindness, which it’s not, but as a reminder that whatever we find lacking about ourselves, for whatever reason, may just be an opportunity for God to work in our lives. The word sin lands on us like a ton of bricks but it is broader than the behaviors it is used to condemn. It means falling short of God’s grace, a missing the mark of what is God’s best. It is so broad a measure that Paul writes “that whatever is not from faith is sin.” It’s not just the things we do that we consider immoral, but everything we do that is not from faith. God has blessed sexual relations between married men and women as a display of the mystery of Christ and the church, his body. The mystery of “abide in Me and I in you” and the display of that mystery of union in Christ is wonderfully seen in a physical display in the sexual relations between a married man and woman. Unmarried men and women cannot display this in a context of commitment and adulterous men and women cannot display this in a context of faithfulness. Homosexual men and women cannot physically display this union at all except in ways that are not God’s best. Sexual relations between the same sex as well as the adulterous and unfaithful can never display the glory of the union of Christ with his body. The matter of sin shouldn’t just be used solely to condemn (usually) others, but also as an opportunity to bring into view God’s best.
I used to feel very strongly against homosexuality, and even spoke up against the LGBT wanting to share their books in the public schools 20 years ago. I love people, no matter who they are, but I believe homosexuality is a sin. Having said that – it is no worse than any other sin, such as lying, gossiping, lusting, or murder. We all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God. I became close to a cousin who is gay, and I realized that he was just like me, or anyone else with worries, desires, love and life. I don’t think as Christians we should look down on LGBT community, unless we are going to look down on liars, and the rest who sin. Love all, and leave judgement to God.
Tel Assar says
How about this. In most cases, people with gender identity issues are born that way. And I believe there is a biblical, scriptural explanation for it. If you start with the wrong presuppositions, your conclusions will be off as well. In Exodus 20:5 the scripture explains that sin is passed down from the fathers to the children. Some translations say the sins are laid on the children or visited on the children to the third and fourth generation. I take this to mean that the areas the fathers sin in will be passed on to their children for 3 to 4 generations. The children inherit a weakness in the area where their parents sinned. It seems like a spiritual DNA that is transmitted. For instance, dad has trouble telling the truth. Jr. has the same issue. Any area of sin is transmitted down the blood line. Jr. inherits a spiritual weakness from his father. He finds it very easy to lie. Abraham, the father of faith, lied about his wife twice. Told her to tell others she was his sister. Abram and Sarai were half brother and sister, same father, different mothers. Their son Isaac pulled the same stunt with Rebecca his wife. Told her to tell others she was his sister. They were not. Jacob, their son was a deceiver. Jacob’s sons lied to him about Joseph for years. Notice that the sin grew more perverse through the generations.
Excellent answer, Brad!
Larry Knight says
Please remember that the resolution of this matter, in either direction, will not change the fact that all of us are sinners. We are not sinners because we sin. We sin because we are sinners. There’s a big difference. We all are guilty of many different kinds of sin. EXODUS 20:1 “I AM the LORD thy GOD, Who brought thee out of the land of Egypt; THEREFORE, THOU SHALT HAVE NO OTHER GODS BEFORE ME.” None of us has ever loved the LORD our God with 100% of our heart, soul, mind, and strength, 100% of the time. We’ve given greater prominence and importance to other things and to people. Therefore, everyone has broken the 1st Commandment. I’m willing to bet that every person who has ever lived has broken the 5th Commandment – Honor your father and your mother…” We haven’t even gotten to sexual sins, and I’ll bet my last dollar that every person has broken both the 1st and 5th Commandments. Therefore, ROMANS 3:10 – There is none righteous; no, not one. We all are in need of a Savior. Jesus Christ is the ONLY Way. JOHN 14:6
No one is born homosexual. Change is possible. I can speak from experience. I am a new man! I am a man who has engaged in sex acts with men; so many I cannot begin to count. But God showed His awesomely abundant love, grace, mercy, and forgiveness on me! The Blood of Jesus cleansed me from ALL sin! The power of the Holy Spirit did the work! JEREMIAH 32:17 “Ah, Lord GOD! You have made the heavens and the earth by Your great power and outstretched arm. There is nothing too hard for You. JEREMIAH 32:27 Behold I AM the LORD, the God of all flesh. Is there anything too hard for Me?
It really does matter what my opinion is, the bible condemns homosexuality. We can’t fit God into our lifestyle choices. He is a Holy God. The bible also clearly says a marriage is between one man and one woman. These are bible truths that most Christians stand By. While we are to be loving and respectful to everyone, respect goes both ways. Christians have a right to be respected for their beliefs as well. What difference will it make if we gain the whole world with the arguments that support any sin, if we end up losing our soul over it? My sin, your sin and whatever they are Labeled…is still sin. CHRIST is faithful and just to forgive us and cleanse from all sin. If we love Christ we will keep his commands by the enabling power of the Holy Spirit. There is man’s opinion, then there is God’s truth.
Adam Birkholtz says
@ R. Brad White: “Many homosexuals I have met would condemn you for taking that position…” The condemnation would not come because of her personal choice (perhaps it would be under the frame “living a lie”). The underlying reason is that Christian dominionists like to latch onto these stories and say, “See her? If she can do what we want, there is no reason we can’t lobby for laws against you and deny your grievances for ‘marriage equality’ in order to make OUR way the more tolerable.” Even if you don’t believe in dominionism and use of political power to selectively breach first amendment rights, many gay children are still under the care of parents and churches who may look at Georgianna’s experience and use it to harm their children (I am a straight person, but I do not think I will ever feel like getting married even when I sometimes experience loneliness. However, I do not use my own experience to tell others that they should feel as I do or to get divorces or else they have chosen to tell Jesus that, “You’re great and all, but I need my (opposite sex) spouse, too.”). When other straight people talk about denying oneself, yet they are married, having sex, and the other 90% of what two people living together in romantic love experience (including mundane stuff like walking pets, taking out the trash, reading books together, possibly staying home from work with sick children…) IN ADDITION to living by Jesus’ grace, it just ends up sounding like vanity, as if somehow they are denying their need to not be alone (why does Jesus in Genesis say that Adam is “alone.” Is not Jesus enough without a wife and possibly sharing Adam’s many daughters and granddaughters as wives with his sons and grandsons in order to fulfill Jesus’ command to be fruitful and multiply? Why does Jesus tell Adam to multiply, thus having tons of incestuous sex, if Jesus’ grace is sufficient and we are to “deny ourselves”?). To reiterate, Georgianna’s choice in itself is not condemnable. In the context that it can be used by Christian dominionists to justify coercion of others who do not fit Georgianna’s mold. She also does not explicitly state not to use her story as a blanket justification for pressuring gay people to live as she does (and as they do), which makes her all the easier to be used.
God abhors all kinds of sin … not just homosexuality. (Also, what’s clear is that it’s the conduct that’s a sin … not the orientation. Temptation itself is never sin.) So then, if you replaced the word “Sodomites” with “sinners” in your sentence above … “So God made sinners in His own image, then said He abhors them?” your question would be shown for the nonsense that it is. The Bible makes it abundantly clear that while God abhors sin, He loves the people (made in His own image) who do the sin. So much so, that He was willing to go to the Cross for us. (ALL of us!) In other words, you can’t use God creating us (and loving us) as an excuse to call any kind of a sin, “not sin.”
By the way, the above comment was intended for @anonymous. I’m not sure why it didn’t post as a reply to his/her post.
Thomas Peck says
Katie Pingu : you have distorted God’s definition of marriage. Marriage is not about love or even two people committing themselves to each other. In Genesis 1, man and woman were created to mulitply (procreate) and tend to the world. Hence marriage is about procreation In Genesis 2, Eve was created to assist Adam in the task God gave him – tending the garden. Hence, marriage provides man with a suitable helper. In Ephesians we are told that the submission of the wife to her husband represents the submission of the church to Christ. Hence marriage is about representing the relationship of Christ and the Church. The idea that marriage is about an emotional response – ‘love’ (which is actually not an emotion…the emotion is lust) – comes from Romanticism and has taken held in modern times. Why is divorce so common? Because we have cheapened marriage to be about self and feelings, rather than about procreation and representation. A same-sex couple ‘married’ may be legal in some places, but that does not remove it as a sin because it is a distortion of what God has ordained.