Thou Shalt Not Say…
What I’m presenting is simply a list of things that enrage the other side
Consider Where The Conversation Will Go
Do you want to continue a conversation with the other side, or do you want to end it and never return?
Be Prepared and Think First
Whenever we speak, we need to be prepared for the response we are likely to receive. If you are an adult, you consider this BEFORE you speak. So again, feel free to speak the truth…I encourage you to do so. Just do so with full knowledge of the response you’ll get.
I’m only going to list a few here, and I’d like you to finish the list with your own experience. Share your own “Thou Shalt Not’s”. When we are through, I will prepare a white paper to distribute so we all know the ground rules. Again, let me know your thoughts.
Thou Shalt Not! Commandments
Thou Shalt Not Say…
Quoting the Bible to an atheist is like them trying to counsel or correct you by quoting from Lord of the Rings
- Homosexuality is a sin (It is a sin, just like many other sins heterosexual sinners commit everyday, but we are not allowed to say it)
- Homosexuality is a choice (There is a lot of debate here, but be prepared for war if you ever say it)
- “Stop cussing please“, or “can we just be polite?” (Google “Tone Trolling” for more info. Whereas in evolved cultures and societies common decency in communication is a virtue, the opposite is often true when talking with the other side). You are not allowed to be offended. Only they can be offended by your desire to be civil. You are not allowed to control what they say, but they are allowed to control what you say by suggesting you stop trying to make them play nicey nice. My only real suggestion here is to live and practice what YOU believe. If you think you should be nice during a conversation…then be nice. If they aren’t nice back…consider it the price for engaging with someone with a vastly different worldview.
- “You are going to go to hell if you don’t accept Jesus Christ as your Lord and Savior. AND, what have you got to lose? If we are right, then you are saved. If we are wrong, you are no worse off.” Atheists and rationalists have a name for this argument. It’s called “Pascal’s Wager“. It’s a little too involved to explain here, but I encourage you to read about it on wikipedia. Now, usually this argument is not met with a lot of anger back. However, they’ve heard it many times before and will quickly zap you for being uninformed about the common use of this by believers. In truth, it’s not a good argument. So, I agree with the opposition on this one. There are many stronger apologetic arguments, and this one just isn’t necessary or helpful.
- Never Ever Ever Quote the Bible. John 3:6 says… OK, when we are in our cozy Christian circles, quote the Bible all you want. In fact, feel free to quote the Bible to atheists. Just accept the fact that they don’t regard the Bible as legitimate. Speak the Truth? YES! But quoting the Bible to an atheist is like them trying to counsel or correct you by quoting from Lord of the Rings or The Da Vinci Code. If they believe the Bible is fictional like those best-sellers, it won’t aid you in your conversation. If you aren’t sure about this, ask first “Do you believe the Bible is true?” If they say no, then talk to them using sources that they DO accept as truth. Quote from Darwin’s Origin of Species. Or quote from a book by Richard Dawkins or Christopher Hitchens. They may actually hear you.
Again, I’ve got a lot more of these, but I want to hear your list.
Be sure not to talk about the God of the Bible, that will surely enrage them. You mentioned a “non Christian homosexual.” Why add “non Christian” to the term? Why not talk about a “non Christian atheist”? Are you distinguishing between “Christian sinners” and “non Christian sinners”? If so, how so? And why? It is essential to identify sin as sin, homosexual or not, because the failure to acknowledge one’s own sin is at the heart of the problem. Sure it will create difficulty. Suffer for it. Having any sex is a matter of choice, except rape. So, how could homosexuality be anything else? I agree that the usual evangelical platitudes are worthless. People have insulated themselves against them in a variety of ways. And quoting the Bible is not usually helpful because unbelievers already don’t believe it. One of the best ways past atheistic and pagan resistance is to say something like, “If I believed about God and the Bible what you believe about God and the Bible, I wouldn’t believe it either.” The idea is not that they don’t disbelieve in God or the Bible, but that they misunderstand it. Before they can decide if they believe it or not, they need to understand correctly what it is, what it is about. Otherwise they are rejecting a patent falsehood, and we can join them in that rejection. Of course, you had better understand God and the Bible correctly yourself first. Otherwise, you will not be helping God’s cause.
Phillip, You Say: “Having any sex is a matter of choice, except rape. So, how could homosexuality be anything else?” However I take big issue with that, does that mean that before any of us have sex we just exist with no sexual orientation? When I was born and growing up I knew I liked boys, I knew I was a heterosexual female. I knew all my life I was straight. It didn’t take the act of sex to make me or prove to me that that’s what I was. I have a homosexual male who is a great friend of mine and is a virgin, he’s never had sex yet is attracted to other males, this makes him Gay. The bible even says “if a man looks at a woman lustfully,he has committed adultery in his heart” (paraphrased). I believe this goes the same for girls looking at guys and for gay and lesbian people as well. The idea that we have no sexual orientation before we have sex (no matter if gay or straight) is just crazy….
Hi April, I think you make some good points, that we do have a sexual orientation before having sex. (otherwise, how would we ever no what to do). But I have some comments. First, I’d have a question about the comment that you made about a man being attracted to a man, means your gay even if you do not have sexual intercourse. I’m not sure we can assume that, and here’s why: Studies have also said that alcoholism is a disease. These studies show that many people are prone to drinking in excess, and some even show that it could be hereditary. So, let’s say that my father was an alcoholic and so was his father. It’s possible that I could also be an alcoholic based on this. But– am I an alcoholic, if I never drink a drop? Let’s say all my life, my mom constantly made me aware that I could have this problem, so as a result of this, I make sure to drink very responsibly, or I make a decision to abstain altogether. What if the desire to drink is still there, especially when I’m out with my friends who drink. Would I be accepted if I attended an AA meeting and told people that I am an alcoholic? Sorry if this sounds like I am patronizing you, I’m not– I just think that you can’t really call a person something, until the commit the act. If you believe the Bible (I’m making an assumption, since you quoted it) you could also believe that we are constantly tempted. But I don’t actually sin, until I DO the sin. Second is this comment, which is purely based on my own opinion…so it’s not factual. But I would be willing to say, that almost EVERY person, has at one time been attracted to someone of the same sex. I think this is the biggest secret that we should be more open about. But just because attraction is there, doesn’t mean that everyone acts on it. Then this would mean that everyone is gay.
The key question is “How would Jesus handle the homosexual issue of today?” I suspect it was culturally not acceptable especially within the first century Jewish culture. I tend to think his first question would be “Do you love one another?” Scripture states that we will be known by our love for one another. Mounting evidence supports some type of homosexual genetic inclination. It seems to me that Christians should be about living a life exampled by Jesus and leave these judgemental issues to God. In Jesus’ case he was always about restoring outcasts in society to acceptance. Further Jesus might point us toward much larger issues in the world such as poverty and hunger. Maybe we should be outraged by these issues rather than marching against homosexuality.
This is in response to ‘Bill’ on 1/15/11. I agree with your ‘key question’ but you seem to conclude that Jesus might view homosexuality as ‘culturally acceptable’ today? While Jesus may not have used the word ‘homosexuality’ in the New Testament, it was included when he said ‘Avoid sexual immorality.’ The minds of any Jewish listener who heard ‘sexual immorality’ would go to the lists of sexually immoral acts in the ‘law’ – which includes homosexuality. ‘Mounting evidence’ in support of a genetic cause for homosexuality is a bit of a stretch. There are mounting studies for a genetic cause and mounting conclusions drawn by inconclusive studies but there is, as yet, no ‘evidence’ of a homosexual gene. Jesus was never about ‘restoring outcasts in society to acceptance’ – if you’re referring to acceptance by society. He was about restoring sinners to a holy God. Repentance is necessary for reconciliation to God – and you’re not likely to repent of a sin if you don’t realize you’re sinning. Yes, Jesus spoke often of poverty and hunger. But He never neglected to speak out against sin.
This is very interesting, because I know I’ve heard people use the “if we’re right, you’re saved, and if we’re wrong, you’re no worse off” reasoning. I think something that WE always think we shouldn’t say is “I DON”T KNOW”, especially when we’re asked questions about the trinity, or deep theological questions that we might not even know the answers to either. But I think people appreciate that kind of honesty at least, rather than a fabricated answer, or what seems like blind faith.
OK. I’ve got a few more “thou shalt nots”. Thou shalt not say… “I’ll pray for you”. – Instead of telling them you’ll pray for them (which they sort of resent), just do it. Pray all you want for them, just never tell them you are going to do it. They many times resent the phrase because it usually comes off as a “I’m better and OK, but YOU really need my prayers, so I’m going to do this thing for you because you need it so much”. Or better yet, tell them what’s troubling you and where you are struggling and ask them to “think happy thoughts” about you. If you want to tell them something, ask, “what could I do for you?” Love them and serve them in a way that THEY connect with.
I remember reading a book many years ago by Desmond Morris who wrote about looking at humans in terms of zoology. I think it was the second book in the series that was titled “The Human Zoo”. Morris made the arguement that animals in the wild do not form homosexual bonds but animals in captivity in zoos certainly do. I wasn’t a Christian at the time of reading this but it seems to relate to this topic. If that is true, (I haven’t done any research) it could be said that homosexuality is a”natural” response to the unnatural surroundings of living in the crush of our modern cities. Given that those multitudes living in that enviroment also experience any real hope being torn away from them by the post-modernist worldviews in acsendancy in our culture, the distancing of a certain portion of our society from normative behavior in many life issues, including sex, is assured.
There really is no “room for debate” as to whether homosexuality is a choice or not. All you straight Christianists out there need to do is ask yourself: “When did I choose to be straight?” Or, alternatively, sit down this weekend and make a choice to have homosexual relations for a change. You don’t have to do it, just make the decision to. Another point to this is, what does it matter whether it is a choice or not? Being Christian is a choice, being a Fred Phelps Christian is a choice, and we tolerate those choices. The best commandment of all is the Golden Rule (reiterated by all world religions), so keep your nose out of my bedsheets and I will keep mine out of yours.
The best two I could add to that list would be: 6. Thou shall not talk about your religion in any sense unless specifically asked to do so. 7. Thou shall not use the Bible or any other holy text as the reason for anything that cannot be justified WITHOUT using the Bible to justify it. In other words you must be able to justify your political or moral stance without using a holy text in order for it to be legitimate. This includes homosexuality being a sin in the first place and all human beings are sinful. If religious people did that. I (as an atheist and secular activist) wouldn’t have a problem with Christianity or even any religion at all. They seem incapable of doing this but I just thought I would put it out there.